SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Frankly, I feel that calling it an addiction means that statistically relapse is more likely.

I agree with this.

But I also think there is such thing as recovery.

I think any ws who became addicts to their ap, which is a limerant affair, will likely repeat an affair or a different addiction if a) the conditions surrounding addiction are not changed and b) coping around triggers and boundaries are enforced.

I do not worry about cheating again because I a) would not put myself in a situation that would lead there because I am now fully aware of what all those things are - like an alcoholic is best to stay away from parties or a bar. b) I have learned ways of coping that keep me from the dark places that made me want to cheat in the first place.

But I think shutting down the conversation about addiction is not something I would encourage anyone. There are many conversations that need to happen around it and without having them there is no way to gauge that growth. So many things grew inside of me when I realized addiction is nothing more than trying to fill a very deep void in yourself and a major step in recovery is to be able to look at and manage that void. I don’t feel I would ever act out in an affair again, but I do know that void is always there to a certain extent and I have to remain vigilant especially during times of hardship. I think denying an addiction occurred can be dangerous for both people, because addiction will want to reoccur in different ways because escapism is easier than the work that it takes to keep that void manageable.

So he shut up about it so you wouldn’t leave, not necessarily because it never existed.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:22 PM, Wednesday, January 8th]

Statiscally speaking it is like an addiction and the risk for relapse is very high. Cheaters are 300% more likely to cheat again on their current partner or a new partner. As a betrayed spouse that is a pretty scary proposition. For a cheater it should be a wake up call that this is something they are 100% responsible for and treat like an addiction i.e., the problem is not from outside of them, but within them and must be addressed or it will persist.

I think it’s semantics. I may crave how chocolate tastes and the sugar high it gives me, but it’s up to me to indulge appropriately. Many people are "addicted" to sugar, but it’s still their choice to consume it. I think some (most?) cheaters love the high from attention of others. Is it a mental disorder, addiction, lack of self love, product of neglectful upbringing, or simple assholery? Who knows. The bottom line is they know it’s wrong and choose it anyway. Calling it an addiction may help them figure out their reasoning, but it’s never an excuse same as the alcoholic who drove drunk killing another. He’s an addict? So what. You killed people.

I don’t worry about my H cheating again.

But I should have worried about it from affair#1 to affair#2.

No remorse after affair1. No guilt. No sense he ever did anything wrong.

Tremendous guilt, remorse & shame after affair2.

. Calling it an addiction may help them figure out their reasoning

,

I do t think it’s the reason you have an affair. The reasons are the things like lack of character, selfishness, entitlement, etc.

The decision to cheat is before addiction. Just like someone who is an alcoholic starts out with the conscious decision to drink too much. It’s moreso, people who become love addicts/sex addicts/obsessive and so on these people are addicts and they must approach recovery like an addict.

A bs must understand what they are reconciling with. Not every ws develops the addiction. But to say it doesn’t happen or doesn’t need addressed is a recipe for disaster.

I know you used sugar as an example- but people who are addicted to sugar go through physical withdrawal. People who are addicted to caffeine go through physical withdrawal. An addiction to an affair does have a physical withdrawal but also a deep psychological one.

I was given drugs that are used to treat OCD because my psychiatrist said that these kinds of an addiction are usually akin to the kinds of compulsions that people with OCD have. Affairs can put certain people further out of balance- you see it often in the news where they killed their spouse to be with their ap, that doesn’t happen with q rational thinker. The darkness experienced coming out of the affair was brutal and it took a lot of dedication to become a safe person to be married to. If my husband had dismissed that, and we had just gone on I think I would be in a very different and likely destructive place. I know that because my sister has been trying to goNC with her AP for over a year. Her husband keeps catching her and believeing that she will change. I keep telling him she is an addict and he can’t see it. She is also acting out in other addict ways because when you feed an addiction it becomes not enough so you will develop others.

It’s dangerous shit, and you do need to be cautious and not go in with blinders. I would not put myself through the pain of that again for anything but many will continue to act out still trying to escape the pain instead of treating it and managing it. So my defense is not to get sympathetic ears, it’s a warning. If you read what Dr. Pittman wrote on romantic infidelity he will describe it as almost all these addicted people will run their marriage into the ground because they can not stop their compulsions. It doesn’t mean they are not accountable for starting it in the first place.

To me, the tell of someone in the thrall of cheap redemption is the key phrase "our marriage is (or our marriage can be) better than ever."

Owl6118, thank you for weighing in, and for your interesting thoughts on the topic. This one particularly jumped out at me because it's one way that WS is trying to convince me to try R again. He has definitely said, "We can build something new, maybe even better than we had." I've gotten angry over that, because what we had before his cheating was pretty damn good. Not sure how anything in the future could be better, though perhaps one day it could be good (I don't think it's likely from my side though).

I do know that void is always there to a certain extent and I have to remain vigilant especially during times of hardship. I think denying an addiction occurred can be dangerous for both people, because addiction will want to reoccur in different ways because escapism is easier than the work that it takes to keep that void manageable.

hikingout, this is a really good point. Since I made my intentions clear to move out, WS has stopped most of his escapist avenues, and that's all fine, but I remain skeptical about what will happen when the pressure eases up or some other stressor makes these efforts of his too hard. He is trying to address the void in therapy at last.

Cheaters are 300% more likely to cheat again on their current partner or a new partner.

Fit43, where did you find this statistic? I wonder if there's an analogous number for people who struggle with addiction too. What is the rate of relapse?

Ultimately, though individuals make up these statistics, there's also a wide variation in behavior, and it's not easy to predict who will be able to maintain recovery in the long term and who is going to relapse. I think that's what makes staying with an addict so scary.

I like ice cream. I really, really like ice cream. Every time I walk into a Kilwin’s, I tell those I’m with that I am addicted to ice cream.

But when I decide I need to lose a few pounds, ice cream is one of the first things I give up.

I’m not really "addicted" to ice cream; not like a heroin addict is addicted. My brain hasn’t rewired itself so that I NEED ice cream.

And so we talk about cheaters being addicted. To the dopamine, to the affirmation, to the orgasms, whatever.

But what I think 5decades was telling us, is that cheaters are not really "addicted", any more than I am to ice cream. Cheaters may really, really like some of what they are getting by cheating, but their brains have not rewired to create NEED.

Comparing relapse of heroin addicts to relapse of cheaters is taking this too far.

Your WH, no thanks, doesn’t have an addiction problem. He has a character problem. And I think it’s important to maintain that distinction.

But there is one important similarity. The "cure" starts with him wanting to be cured.

Does he care enough about you and his family to want to be cured?

Former people person,

Maybe I missed it but who compared it to a herion addiction?

I am very sorry but these analogies about ice cream, someone else put sugar, not at all the same.

I wouldn’t compare it to the addiction to hard drugs because I have no experience in that. But, the way it was explained to me by medical professionals is love addiction is comparable to gambling or shopping addictions. Because those are situations that people have created a new reward system in their brain that creates a physical and psychological dependency.

So, if you ever knew a gambler or a true shopoholic, you would know they go to great lengths to keep that escapism in the forefront. They will put themselves in crippling debt, lose their family and their homes, sometimes even their jobs. Many will commit crimes or even resort to suicide.

With limerence, people will do the same thing- they will keep going back to their ap until it collapse their marriage. And most of us know people who did this to a spouse that was a much better life decision to stay with than pursuing their worthless ap. I believe they even know it when they are doing it but the compulsion is so strong they do it anyway (that was absolutely my experience too). I knew the ap wasn’t even in the same league as my husband, he was also old enough to be my father and I knew he had cheated for most of his marriage. Why would I want that when I had a faithful loving husband at home?

If you Google what are the characteristics of addiction this is what you get:

1. Inability to stop

2. Continue use even through negative consequences

3. Preoccupied with use, meaning they have a one track mind and avoid responsibilities because of their obsession

4. Changes in behavior

5. Experiences withdrawal

This is what I experienced. If you have an addiction to Ive cream you would go multiple times a day, you would gain a lot of weight and still be unmotivated to stop, you would physically go through withdrawal if you miss a day and the longer missing your fix would spiral you into a depression.

That is what addiction looks like.

Some people have affairs, they are more just looking for "extra" and then they can drop their ap like a hot potato and not blink an eye. So not everyone experiences it.

But those of us who do, it’s hell on earth (of our own making of course), and it’s not easy to recover. It again has nothing to do with the ap, it’s more about the attachment to the feelings being in an affair creates- a cocktail of dopamine and adrenaline, and a sense of it being your entire world because you have become so consumed by it that you now have mental illness.

There are degrees of it- some people here would tell you they have been stalked by the ap, the ap is still trying to contact their spouse despite court orders, restraining orders, etc. others like me would tell you that we resisted our urges to contact the ap but it was an ever present urge that made it hard to focus on much else. I would leave work, sit in a park and beg God to take it away from me. I didn’t want it. I logically didn’t want him, but our contact had been so obsessive during the affair that my mind was trained to get all good feelings from it. I couldn’t find anything that gave me good feelings anymore.

I am not defending any of it, I hated it then and I hate thinking about how low I had sunk or even admitting it to a group of people. But it took meds, forcing myself towards behavioral changes that could help me adjust to normal amounts of dopamine. I shook, I had chills, I couldn’t read which had been my favorite way to wind down. And regrettably after being an avid reader since fifth grade, I never got back to reading every day though I am thinking of trying again.

Affairs are so destructive, and I know having been the ws and the bs that as the bs you look at any and all things like some excuse. But there is no excuse for having an affair, that was done making conscious decisions, but it can destroy the ws in many ways that can be hard to recover from. I think bs’s need to be able to have that information and make choices about their future knowing their ws is damaged in a new way.

I feel thankful I did not break no contact, but when I see bs here where their ws is doing that after watching them in pain after their first dday, I know that is what they are dealing with. And while I think it’s possible in the early days for nc to be broken for other reasons besides addiction, it’s a likely culprit and probably requires treatment. People who dismiss that will likely continue to be on the receiving end of more cheating and that’s why I think it’s very dangerous for people to liken this to saying they are addicted to ice cream because they love it. It’s not comparable at all unless you are finding yourself so obsessed with it that it is ruining your life yet you can not stop.

The beauty of this discussion is that there is no stupid or wrong answer and only right answers... even if the right answers contradict each other.

My thoughts – and I’m sticking to alcoholism although I think this possibly applies to most substance addictions,
We have had addictions through the ages, yet it’s fairly recently that people started to think of it as a disease. We still – as a society – still think it’s a lot to do with self-will and character. At a comparable time in recent history we had a "Just say no" campaign –based on this being an issue of will, while the Betty Ford treatment centers grew in stature and recognition – based on this being an illness.

I have this theory...
I think that so much recent (in the last 20 years) supports that alcoholism/addiction is a physical disease. There is such a strong genetical connection, and a statistically significant higher chance of addiction if recent generations battled abuse. The odds don’t lower much if one generation stays sober – like if you experienced your mom and dad drunk on a daily basis and YOU decide to be sober or can manage your drink – the odds of your children becoming addicts is higher than average, due to the genealogical/DNA background.

This is why parents in families with alcoholic tendencies (like gramps sauced-out all the time, uncle Harvey passed out, have to drive Aunt Edna around because of her last DUI...) are told to discourage their kids from starting early... Promise your kid to pay for the license and offer access to a car – as long as they pass random drug- and alcohol tests. Some significant research has shown that despite genealogical background, the later you start the more likely you are to have control. Theories are that it has to do with brain development, but I think it’s a combination of development and maturity.

But... I also think that all of us can be addicted to feeling good... Like eating ice-cream makes me feel great, but I have the sense to know that if I eat too much or too often I will pay in health and weight, plus over time and quantity it wont really make me feel that good. Try telling that to an eight-year old...
That "feeling good" might blur the line between an addict, and someone that simply abuses alcohol. I think I fell into the later group at a stage in my life. After some months of going out and drinking a minimum of 2x a week, more often 3-4 days, I thought I might have a problem, so I decided to quit for 30 days, just to see if I could. For me it was easy, so easy that it extended to about 8 months. Since then, I have been a moderate to nearly-no drinker and do not have any issues with alcohol.
What that tells me is that I am not an addict. If I had that addictive tendency – that gene or DNA or whatever – that made me crave more alcohol to a scale where "normal" self-imposed boundaries don’t work... that would make me an alcoholic.

That’s what AA and many comparable programs are about. Learning to control what you can, and to work with that craving by recognizing it and avoiding the triggers that might activate it. A big part of that is "coming clean" and accountable, as is outlined in the 12 step process.

I think the relatively low success rate for rehabilitation might lie in that many that are abusing whatever substance/event they abuse are applying the treatment designated for those that are physically triggering the gene/dna/tendency/longing (call it what you like) need. Sort-of like treating a migraine with chemotherapy.

So... the infidelity connection...
Yes – I do think many of the initial actions, emotions and all that the WS experiences are about as addict-connected as that 8 year old with a free range at the ice-cream store...
Yes – I do think that many of the methods and rules that might apply to a spouse getting off the vodka would apply to a spouse getting off the OP. Like... no booze/no communications or interaction with OP; smell your breath/be open and accountable; don’t be around OP/don’t be at bars and so on.
Yes -I can see that the affair and it’s bonuses draw the WS back like a moth to a light.

But... In relatively few instances do I see the physical connection – if you want, a DNA connection – that creates a real NEED to cheat. I have no doubt that a real coke-addict or a hard-core drunk has a real physical NEED for his substance-of-choice. That’s what detox handles, followed by the program that helps them stay sober. I don’t really see that immense physical cold turkey with someone who thinks Susy in accounting is the love of his life, or that Brad next door is the White Knight.

The big danger IMHO in equating infidelity to addiction is the same as when people started acknowledging alcoholism as a disease: EVERYONE got it.
If you had a reputation for drinking, beating your wife and making your company bankrupt, you went to Betty Ford, attended, AA and expected everyone to give you a second chance. After all – it’s an illness and you got treated. Hardly your fault, any more than if you got cancer.
Problem is that a) it didn’t make you accountable (as real AA / 12 Step does...) and b) it didn’t deal with the real underlying issue. The comparison only goes so far...

Here is what it boils down to biggger:

Not everyone who drinks or even drinks too often is an alcoholic.

Not everyone who has an affair will become addicted to it. It’s a spectrum. Some will go cold turkey with no issue. This was my husband. Some will struggle a little bit but may not have withdrawal but may miss the ap. Some people, like me, will have withdrawal but maintain no contact and go through the hell of recovery. Others willl not be able to break it off with the ap and will go under cover with them while repeatedly getting caught, their situation becoming more dire by the day yet they are unable to control the compulsions. Some will stalk, harass, and not be able to let go even when their ap says they don’t want them, and some will commit crimes to try and be with AP.

My reason for posting this is not really to debate addiction, because obviously many here have never battled one and I think until you do you could never understand it. And some of what is being said is wrong because it’s opinions that aren’t rooted in experience or science. If you can quit drinking easily because you want to then you did not have an addiction. While others are on their own spectrum.

I just think it’s important for some people here to recognize what they are up against. Many are married to sex addicts, and I suppose others here are saying I love sex, what’s the problem? Well the problem is their brain chemistry is different than yours and for them it’s a compulsion that rules their entire life. In fact it has nothing to do with loving sex. Just like my withdrawal had nothing to do with loving the ap, because I didn’t. It had to do with a level of dependency that I do not feel you can relate to and that’s okay. But it is a real thing, people are treated for these things all the time.

It’s also important to recognize their obsession has nothing to do with them thinking the ap is better, it has to do with a dependency. Not so you can forgive it but so you can understand it’s not going to change and move on. Saving oneself from more trauma or wondering what they lack. It’s not they lack anything it’s that their ws has gone batshit crazy due to this dependency and is need of mental health care.

The behavior I've observed with my WS over the past 2 years, lines up pretty well with hikingout's descriptions. He didn't go NC until I found out about the false R and went to see a lawyer. He was often pale and shaky - not when we talked about the affair or my pain, but when he would think about/talk about the AP. I even commented that he looked like a drug addict. In those early months, he was offended. He thought it was love and limerence and grief over losing her, but he didn't think he was addicted to her.

Obviously his tune has changed a lot, and he now embraces the addiction/mental illness narrative. I think it's partly because, as Bigger said, this entitles him to a "second chance." (I put that in quotes because I've already given him so many chances that it's more like his 4th or 5th chance.) I think he feels that because he's acknowledged his problems and is doing the work to deal with them, he deserves another shot at R with me. And while intellectually WS understands my position - that I need space to heal on my own first - there's a part of him that's aggrieved by my continued standoffish attitude.

On my side, I can intellectually appreciate that genetics, biochemistry, and brain development are highly variable, which means some people are definitely more susceptible to destructive behavior and will struggle with self-control. Heck, every male on WS's father's side cheated at least once. We recently learned that one of his uncles has a fully grown secret love child! So maybe infidelity does have a genetic component.

But my heart is too crushed to care what my intellect (or WS's) says about the situation. Gambling addiction, hoarding, drugs, cheating - whatever it is that causes the destructive behavior, ultimately the people who are collateral damage have to make choices for their own health and safety. Al-anon talks about detaching with love. At some point, the BS has to protect themself. I don't think "in sickness and health" is supposed to include a sickness that hurts the BS.

The 300% statistics comes from a university of Denver study. But there's multiple studies showing this same pattern including a notable one from the UK as well. Behavior change is hard work IMO. Most any pyschiatrist will tell you the greatest predictor of future behaviors is past behaviors.

Add in the mix the tendencies for the unfaithful to be avoidant and have insecure attachment styles and the addictive theory makes sense. Add in another compounding mixture of people with dark triad traits (not all cheaters by any means) and you probably get people where the 300% statistic is much greater.

I do believe people can change but if the Vegas Odds makers were setting odds - the house odds would be with cheating again.

Studies also show those who are least likely to never cheat again are those who feel immediate overwhelming pain from what they've done, confess, and immediately engage in work to heal their relationship.

IMO those who get caught up in living a double life are probably more inclined to fall into addictive nature of it.

But... I also think that all of us can be addicted to feeling good..

Sums it up perfectly and describes why some people have difficulty ending affairs.

My H willingly rekindled the affair because he was convinced he loved the OW and she was his "soul mate".

I don’t know what his wake up call was exactly. On dday2 he had ended the affair a few hours before I found out he had been cheating for the past few months while I thought we were reconciling.

But I am certain his need for the affair took over his rational thinking and decision making. He became unrecognizable and totally out of character from the person I knew for 30 years.

But my heart is too crushed to care what my intellect (or WS's) says about the situation. Gambling addiction, hoarding, drugs, cheating - whatever it is that causes the destructive behavior, ultimately the people who are collateral damage have to make choices for their own health and safety. Al-anon talks about detaching with love. At some point, the BS has to protect themself. I don't think "in sickness and health" is supposed to include a sickness that hurts the BS.

I think that is not only understandable but healthy to recognize. When you are married to someone who has an affair and they have an addiction in top of it, then often they will wear you out before they do anything.

And honestly, doing it to save the marrage is not a good enough reason. Most addicts need to feel the pain of changing is easier than the pain of continuing. Change has to be a decision based on pure desire and not to obtain reward. I did do some work in myself at first for the marriage but honestly I couldn’t stand the idea of continuing any of the path I had been on- from being avoidant to being able to lie and cheat. It takes a lot of work to fix your attachment style, and in some ways I am less anxious but I have to be cognizant on how my tendency to avoid/worry impacts how I am living life.

No one owes anyone a second (or 3rd,4th) chance and at this point, he needs to show he can do this no matter the outcome of the marriage or else he isn’t truly dedicated to the change.