SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've posted on here previously about how my husband has a relationship with another woman, moved in with her kids etc and then when I found out, returned home claiming mental breakdown. It's coming up to a year and things feel as horrible as ever. He's adamant he had a breakdown, doesn't remember making any decisions etc but his version of events remembered through a cloud of drugs and my version, with no substances, are very different.
I have given him every opportunity to be a father, to reduce financial pressure on him and even offer friendship in the hope he would use the time and space to rebuild his life, but every boundary I have put down becomes a starting point for negotiation or just a rule to be broken.
He has scheduled us for counselling because he's adamant that we need to try reconcile as the affair wasn't his fault due to mental illness.
I'm quite nervous about counselling. He can be really charming and persuasive. I already feel like I've been managed the last year, first by him and AP, and then when he returned through suicide ideation and excessive drinking. What if he dominates the counselling or charms them. I don't have much more strength left to defend myself or refute his versions to someone new.
Any thoughts? Has anyone has experiences of joint counselling they could share?
Thanks in advance.

Honestly, your husband needs individual counseling.

I would hold off on the couples' counseling.

Your husband is broken, he stepped out of the marriage, he needs to fix his own sh*t before he pulls you in.

It doesn't sound like he is willing to be held accountable for his actions, there's no negotiating boundaries IMO, no rationalizing with an excessive drinker, that needs to stop as well if there is any hope to move forward.

Fully agree with annb. I'll assume that he has regular IC being the mental crisis(es) that he has experienced. Does he still go? Does he give you any window into his sessions? How do you feel about his IC?

There is no way that he is ready for MC. Even if he doesn't remember anything during his breakdown, his real issue should be the damage that you have sustained, and how he can alleviate that. Addressing 'marriage' issues is not the way. He has to get himself straight, help get you straight, then the two of you can address marriage issues. Not before.

Has he always been this selfish? If so you have a steep hill to climb. If this is fairly recent he might need a complete physical/mental appt. Be sure to alert whoever is seeing about his behavior.
This worries me that you are being gaslit. It’s making you question your own reality. If you know something is true do.not.back.down.
Read Lying by Jonathan Wallace in the Ethical Spectacle.

He is in IC but I have no idea what he has said to them. He was on anti depressants after his return but he has stopped taking those now. I'm not sure if that has been discussed with his gp.
I'm very aware about the potential gaslighting. The evidence of it during his affair is astounding but he still can't listen to my experience of that time, or denies my version of events. It's got to the point that I have friends who supported me during that time are reminding me how things happened to me and the kids isn't in my head, that yes it wasn't that bad.
Yes he has always been selfish. I always said it was self centred not intentionally selfish. It's how he is built.
I feel like I've been cornered a bit into going. I know things haven't moved in a direction really a year since it happened but there are very logistical issues around solitting and the children that I can't solve while my children are in different schools. I was hoping he would accept friendship and fatherhood as enough while I had counselling but he wants either full reconciliation or to move away entirely. I could find solutions to the logistics but he is erratic in his decision making and my energy is completely pulled into protecting the kids from is he staying is he going and working full time to pay for everything ( his finances are a mess since his affair ).
I'm just so exhausted and I worry he will completely talk over me at counselling. He is so good at picking a story and sticking with it and I'm not sure I have the energy to have my experience heard. I don't really want reconciliation. I just want some peace from it all but it's never ending.
I just wondered how couples counselling works, or how I should prepare myself. If anyone has been through couples counselling and what to expect?

Just correcting a typo. My friends are reminding it WAS that bad.

The attitude he shows is that of a self centered broken ego who is ready to lie through his teeth other than admitting any accountability for himself, shamed but unremorseful and feeling entitled to get his delusional lies validated by external actors, the main being his victim (you) because if he can gaslight you to accept his lie as reality, then he is not forced to finally look in the mirror and see what a gigantic PoS he has chosen to become.

Because how he is today isn’t how he was born. Is the result of a ruinous series of choices and dysfunctional coping mechanisms that built the ego who is on autopilot today.

A gigantic mask of fakeness covering a bottomless void of worthlessness.

I don’t see any real evidence of him working on himself as a person who is aware of "I don’t like who I have become. This is broken. I am disgusted by this and this is not who I want to be". I see somebody who is embracing the rotten ego and projects his needs outside to have it validated.

In short, unremorseful cheater.

Shame is not remorse, is different. Shame is fearing to be shown as a piece of shit in the spotlight for all to see.
Remorse is "I am not a piece of shit. But I became one. I want to change it, for this is not who I feel I am".

Abyssal difference.

Marriage counseling. Rarely works in infidelity’s matters. Unless the counselor is well specialized and forces accountability first, it’s counterproductive.

Your average marriage counselor is trying to heal the marriage. Not your trauma. Not his brokenness.
You can expect stuff of the caliber of "I know you have been raped, and that’s wrong. But he is sorry now and it is in the past. Move on and forget about it and work on the reason why you need to stay together and reconcile. "

Paraphrasing but not so much either.

It’s no good at this time. He pisses on your boundaries, that’s lack of respect.
You can’t expect him to help healing your trauma (which he caused intentionally).

You want to be with a safe partner were you ever to reconcile. That means he needs to change first, and the first step for this is accountability.

You can never reconcile with a cheater. You can only reconcile with someone who changed and become a better version of himself.

He is not on that path, he is digging deeper spiraling into the lies of his betrayer narrative and expecting you to follow quietly and suit. His ego feels entitled to this.

Sister, nobody deserves a second chance, it even if they are truly remorseful. It’s a gift that costs you, the abused victim, a lot.

The question you have to answer to yourself is this: does he deserve this, as he is now?

Put yourself first sister. You are the prize.

Couples should have aligned goals to reconcile.

In your situation based on what I read, his goal is to cram his "why I cheated" bullshit down your throat until you accept it.

And he will try to use professional counselors to do so.

Now the counselors could be wise and savvy enough to see through his crap. Or they may be the type to allow the "unmet needs" bullshit as a reason to justify the affair.

You are dealing with an adult who has the mindset of an adolescent who wants his own way 100% of the time. Honestly it sounds mentally exhausting.

Ask yourself WHY you want to Reconcile w/ this man-child. You sound miserable. You have another kid to parent — he’s not a partner.

Read up on the 180 and get yourself out of this mess. Stop engaging w/ him as an adult. Stop trying to set boundaries. He knows what he is doing is wrong. He just wants to bully you to get his own way.

He can certainly have his own way 100% — as a single guy. No discussion needed - he’s free to do what he wants when he wants.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 1:46 PM, Friday, September 18th]

but he wants either full reconciliation or to move away entirely.

When he says move away, does he mean logistically for himself? To be fair, if my partner didn't want to reconcile, I would look to close that chapter of my life. Parental life and responsibilities are a different topic, and shouldn't be mixed in with the romantic/emotional life. They are separate if the two of you are not going to be a couple.

I base that off this:

I don't really want reconciliation.

If you did, and we're struggling internally, then I would think differently about his stance. But if you want out, then that should be the goal.

Gently, you can and must take control of your own life to heal from his betrayal. I know that's easier said than done, but you can do it, and it's the only possible way to get your life going well.

I have to add: if you do take control of your life, he will probably become even nastier than he is now. He may get violent. Before confronting him, I suggest preparing yourself and family to get to a shelter. Really, I think you may be in danger.

One reco is to demand a joint session with his IC to find out what he has told the IC and what he is doing in IC. This means leaving - kicking him out, if he'll go - if he doesn't set up the joint session.

2nd reco is to work with a good IC to learn to rely on yourself, your thoughts, your feelings, your perceptions, and to figure out what you want from M how to get it, and whether or not your H is likely to meet your requirements. (I'm another reader who thinks he's too narcissistice to be a good partner.

3rd reco, go to the joint session. If you don't get a chance to talk, make it the last session and prepare to dump your H. If you get your chance, tell your story just as you did here. In fact, printing out this thread and giving it to the CC is probably a good idea.

You have more strength than you think your do. You have more power than you think your do. You can use your strength and power to act in your best interests.

Your H may be 'mentally ill' and in need of drugs as well as talk therapy. His words and actions could be bizarre and the results of a brain or body chemistry problem. But he's going to keep doing what he does now unless someone acts to get him to change his course - and you ar the best-positioned person to do that.

Every word Sisoon posted…

Even if we were to agree that some mental condition made him do all this…
Without diagnosis and treatment to understand what led to that disease, without knowledge both for him and you to recognize the early symptoms, without an agreed upon and enforceable action plan when the early symptoms start…
What prevents a repeat?

Exactly this Bigger. Even if I believe the breakdown story and his mental breakdown caused him to burn every bridge with me, his daughter and our friends, the conditions leading to his so called breakdown are worse now. It was that he was getting no's from job applications, our finances were stretched and I was working long hours. None of that has changed and now he's also dealing with a massive rupture. So what to stop him lying to us again?
And if it was a breakdown I can't see how that leads to him throwing his family away within two hours of meeting someone and swapping one life for another. Apart from she had money and big house and a pool. My instinct is always to protect the family. Kind of why I let him back into our sphere when he decided it wasn't working down there, so that the kids at least had a chance to have a relationship with him. And wish I had just locked the door like everyone told me to.

I don't mind if he moves far away. I was maybe hoping for too much, that he would stay local and be there for the kids and accept friendship. But this doesn't appear to be an option for him. It's either full reconciliation ( which my body physically wouldn't allow even if my heart did because of panic attacks ) or he moves 2 hours away.

Maybe counselling would be useful just to be heard. He can't tolerate questions about the affair or comments but then takes my silence about it ( to keep things calm for the kids ) as softening and thinks he has a chance. I just need him to respect my boundaries and not constantly try downplay his relationship with his AP. He did it. He had a relationship with her, they were talking marriage, they applied for my divorce and were planning on getting my kids down there before I even knew she existed. Saying he didn't really mean any of that or doesn't remember the countless decisions he took while with her is little reassurance of anything.

And thank you all for your advice. It helps more than you know xx

Run. He’s mentally messing with you and he has no interest in change. .He wants MC to say he cheated because you weren’t being intimate - it wasn’t his fault.

Your kid sees all this You are modeling what is acceptable and this is NOT acceptable. You deserve better. He doesn’t want to change, he’s off his meds so he’s not treating his depression, he’s trying to rug sweep so hard it hurts. He DID this. He needs to fix himself before you can repair the M, and he isn’t even acknowledging what he did yet.

I am so sorry and I know how hard this is, but he is giving you nothing to work with. Stay strong. You can do this. Sending virtual (((hugs))).

I experienced a mental breakdown almost ten years ago that came with a profound loss of function. It definitely caused some problems and stress in our marriage, but what it didn't do was make me cheat on my wife. Nor did it "make" her cheat on me. That was her decision and it had nothing to do with external circumstances. She owns that now.

I don't know what happened with your husband, but what I experienced was pretty drastic and profound. I remember pretty much everything and own every ounce of it.

I suspect he's hiding behind it and does not sound like a safe partner at all. I think he remembers more than he's willing to admit. I also think you've been given some great advice so far, so I don't have much to add beyond my personal experience.

Take care of yourself. I'm genuinely pulling for you,

Pogre that's partly what I'm struggling with. During those weeks that I was profoundly lied to he seemed incredibly clear. Worked, bought a car, booked hotels, applied for a divorce and built an incredible web of lies. There was no loss of function. His mental health plummeted around the same time my neighbour told me what was happening ( he has told them ) and child maintenance got in touch. And again when the AP got in touch to fill in everything he was never intending to tell me.
He claims he doesn't remember making any decisions in that time or remember much of it. Sadly my 12 year old daughter got pulled into it when she said openly to him his stories were full of holes and her recollection of that time was he was enjoying what he was doing. I've never told her but that was backed up by copies of messages he had sent the AP which she forwarded to me.
So what I know doesn't match what he says and I suspect you're right in that he remembers more than he lets on.
I just can't figure out why he came back and why he's so determined to make me believe him. He is so adamant it's what happened and it's why I'm nervous of counselling.

And yes great advice from everyone. As always I'm
so grateful. So lucky to have found this website.

I'm not a "normal" person and am neurodivergent. So is my wife. We're quite a pair. I can't know what's up with your husband, but I just recently found some answers for some lifelong patterns and that breakdown I mentioned. I was treated for major depression and it turns out that was the wrong treatment for me.

I've been through some shit. I've had opportunities and never acted on them. One thing I don't do, and neither does my wife, is blame neurodivergence for infidelity or memory loss. It would be disingenuous and a bunch of hooey. We both still know right from wrong. I'm no therapist, but I think memory loss on the scale your husband is claiming would be more consistent with psychosis or a major delusion. It just seems awfully convenient he started blaming mental issues after he got caught.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I read your first thread and what you went through sound awful. It's no wonder you're still struggling. Has he admitted to or done anything to try and fix this since you discovered what he was up to? A truly remorseful spouse would share the whole truth with all of the ugly details and be willing to bend over backwards to do whatever it takes to make up for it. Your husband sounds pretty far off from any of that.

Have you talked to a solicitor or a lawyer just to get a lay of the land and get an idea of what a divorce might look like? Sometimes fear of the unknown can keep people stuck in freeze mode. I'm not saying you should run out and file for divorce if you're not ready to, but knowledge is power, and I think taking some of your power back might do you some good.

Pogre I have seen a solicitor a couple of times. It would be a struggle to split the assets and him have enough money to live on when child maintenance is taken into account. I'd struggle with the guilt of that. And everytime I have tried to broach next steps it results in erratic behaviour or a new crisis so solicitor suggested parking while his mental health is in question.

The counselling today wasn't easy but wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. The counsellor managed the session well and very quickly called out the vague recollection of the affair and him blaming AP for everything. I know I need to understand adhd better. And she was good at identifying bs. I've said I want to reach a place of good communication and coparenting. I am not considering reconciliation at this point or any time soon.

I just re-read through your whole first thread. You seem to have a lot of realistic clarity and your head is really on straight. I'm so sorry you're still dealing with this madness. FWIW I think you're handling this very well under the circumstances. Just hang in there and use us to vent or ask advice if you get stuck. We've all got your back here.

I know you know this because you've said it, but I just want to reinforce that none of this is your fault. You might not feel it, but I think you're a very strong person. You're doing the best you can under the circumstances. It might be dim now, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel and you will eventually reach it.