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I think you know by now that you shouldn’t prop up the AP at your BH expense. Why would you say that AP had to deal with your triggers? I get that it’s strange, but to him that’s a part of you that only BH witnessed. Our BPs want us to be theirs so sharing experiences with others can sting a lot. Trick for now is to not spiral, assure him that triggers with sex are something you’ve always dealt with, no matter who it was, and that BH is the only one. I mean, surely you’re not going around saying to BH he compared worse to AP physically or that you enjoyed it with AP, are you, given that AP violated you in the most damaging and disgusting way? So this should be an easy thing to explain to BH.

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[This message edited by morted at 10:40 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

Hard to say. Sex is a tricky thing after infidelity and it’s entirely possible he might just be feeling hurt that he has to deal with triggers, some of which the AP added to and then also the comparison was made.

My husband and I almost fully went through a divorce. So there is the idea of the rollercoaster, and this could be a low.

At the same time, given your history, I think if he really does just want a casual sex arrangement until he can find someone else then I think you have to consider whether or not that is a mutually beneficial arrangement. I would give it a bit and see if this continues to be what he has to say after there has been some cool down time. If so, it’s probably not advisable to continue letting people use you for company and sex.

But I just would be patient for the next while and keep focusing on working on you. Kee your eye on the ball, your longest relationship is going to be with yourself and these issues you have are going to take a while to work through.

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[This message edited by morted at 10:41 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

If I think about it selfishly, at least where I am now, I'm still jealous and insecure. It would hurt to just be the placeholder until he finds the pretty young thing he's going to replace me with.

I personally think you would do better not to over analyze here. Instead as these things happen, just wait. Keep working on you, keep making your steps.

And if the message he is giving is consistent, I would start to believe it and worry about it then.

Your husband is in an emotional tornado and he is going to be all over the place. He is in pain, likely doesn’t know what he wants because it changes by the minute. Do your best, it’s all you can do.

Now, if it does remain the message, you have to stop self abandoning to get love. You can’t be a place holder for someone. For now, I dont think it’s time to make a decision on that and just remain open ended for now. Watch and work, and try and be patient. If he was so hurt over the sex thing, he likely just wanted to withdraw from you. Some of his words may be to push you away. But if he didn’t love you he wouldn’t be hurting, and you have to remember that.

I just always when my husband felt angry tried to be there for him but I let some of those things he would say go without latching onto it.

But it’s the codependency saying you deserve to have him use you until he discards you for another woman. No one healthy would agree to that. I just wouldn’t put stock into him meaning it yet.

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[This message edited by morted at 10:43 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

This is all something I just need to be a rock through, right? Is this normal roller coaster stuff or a sign that repair is doomed.

While I think the WS has a role in kind of sitting there and taking/being the calm, steadfast shock absorber of a bit of the BS’s flailing/spiralling in the aftermath of an A, but I do think there are limits on what you should be expected to accept and this recent update sounds like he’s perhaps crossed some boundaries. Him suggesting he has no intention to reconcile with you, but wants to use for no-strings sex until he can find someone "better" is….atrocious. I will cop to not being familiar with the entirety of your story. But like, is this him just lashing out in anger or is he being serious? Is it normal for him to speak to you with this kind of disrespect?

Look, I’m not a WS and so this is probably out of my depth, but for what it’s worth, I definitely don’t think you should allow yourself to simply be a doormat for him to treat you like shit. I don’t care if you cheated, you’re a person – the mother of his children – and lashing out when you’re overcome with anger/triggers is one thing (if that’s what this is), but this is not okay. To be clear, I definitely did my fair share of lashing out when I was a new BS and tortured with hurt and trying to make my husband feel the pain I was in so maybe he could possibly understand and empathize, but I also had a certain built in moral compass, that meant that I felt badly when I said something that crossed a line. And so when I crossed those lines, I made a point to apologize to my husband. I didn’t want a marriage where I always had the upper hand and he was always going to expect (and take) my contempt. That’s not real R - that's not real love.

You’re worried he doesn’t respect you right now but the reality is that he’s not going to come around to respecting you again if you let him treat you like disposable sex toy (your wants and desires be damned). Honestly, I understand that your instinct right now is to go-along to get-along right now, but I’m willing to bet that part of your work as a WS is to learn to be the kind of person who acts authentically and in line with your own moral code (rather than being swayed by your desire to keep everyone else around you happy) and you are not going to be able to get there by continuing to choose to disrespect yourself. You’re probably just going to confirm to him that you’re not the type of woman he wants to be with. He might be irritated by you setting boundaries with him in how he’s allowed to speak to/treat you "You didn’t do that with the AP", but that’s part of your work. He needs to see you have changed – YOU need to see that too.

So I want to echo what Hiking has asked. You need to sort out if this is something he’s just saying in anger to hurt you, or if it’s actually the truth. If it’s the truth, you need to decide whether this what you want. Do you want to be his no strings attached booty call placeholder, while he looks for someone "better"? Or are you only considering this as a way to stick around long enough that you hope he’ll change his mind? To be honest morted, I can’t imagine that you want what he is proposing. That is not healthy for you (or him to be honest). I also can’t imagine that it is healthy for your kids to witness their parents in a marriage without love and respect. So if it’s not what you want, you need to stand up for yourself and set some boundaries for how he’s allowed to speak to, and treat you. I know that’s scary. I know you feel your marriage is only holding on by a string right now and that if you make a single wrong move, that thread will snap, but you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it. I know that goes against probably every fibre of your being right now, but it’s true. You will never be a safe partner to him or anyone until you are able to do this. It’s so cliché, but you really do have to love yourself first.

I certainly contemplated finding some nubile beauties to service me after d-day (at my age, I couldn't count on servicing them), but it was the nubile beauties or R, not NBs and R.

I can't ever imagine telling my CSA-survivor co-d W that I expected her to be available for casual sex until I found someone better but that R was out of the question. That strikes me as downright sadistic and contemptuous, and if I was that contemptuous of my W, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to R with her.

So I think your H may have told you who he really is, unless he's so emotionally immature that he said those things to you out of anger, grief, fear, or shame.

I think it will be MUCH harder for you to heal if you have to experience abuse from him; in fact, his abuse may make healing impossible.

You apparently had consensual sex with the POS who raped you, and you were sexually abused by your father. Those are very heavy burdens to carry and to heal from. But you are working to shut down your vulnerabilities to cheat again. I imagine you're working to shut down your barriers to true intimacy. That's hard work, but there's a lot of reason to hope that the work will have good effects. I wish you the best. Paradoxically, the more you come to value yourself, the better partner you become.

This is all something I just need to be a rock through, right?

I think your H may be making your life more difficult than it needs to be. You don't describe a person who is a good candidate for R.

My reco is to sit down with your H, perhaps with a neutral observer like an MC in the room, and tell him you want to R. Ask him what his requirements are, and tell him you'll need support to R. That should result in a decision to D, to R, or to spend more time figuring out what you both want enough to work for.

The conversation I recommend will end best if you stay focused on yourself - your wants, your needs, not selling yourself out - and he stays focused on himself in the same way.

You can both be great people but not be able to R. And make no mistake: underneath the victimized child and woman you are, there's a loving, lovable, capable person who is as valuable as any other human being. Same thing for your H. It may just be that you don't fit together well enough now.

If you have to choose between being yourself and stifling yourself to stay with your H, I hope you choose being yourself.

*****

IMO, your were absolutely right to tell your H that your POS ap had to deal with your triggers. Without honesty, R is impossible. If one of you can't handle the truth, I don't see how R can succeed.

Courage, morted, courage. Patience, too....

. And make no mistake: underneath the victimized child and woman you are, there's a loving, lovable, capable person who is as valuable as any other human being.

This. Your work is to see exactly this. It will change the lens in which you see everything. This is your journey, your work, the number one thing.

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[This message edited by morted at 10:43 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

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[This message edited by morted at 10:44 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

I am concerned by your comment that now that he’s taking good physical care of himself he looks so good.

Sometimes people do that as a way to sublimate suicidal ideation. I guarantee he is not ok, and commenting positively on his looks could be…. Insensitive at best.

Tread carefully around that issue. Him "looking good" to you is soooooo complicated, and it’s concerning to me that you see the superficial aspects of it and might be missing what’s likely underneath. He is not ok. This is a coping skill, a way to gain control for him.

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[This message edited by morted at 10:44 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

Seeing him being disciplined and becoming his best self is what I find attractive.

I find it really impressive that he's using the pain he's going through as motivation to work on himself and get to a better place rather than stagnating or further isolating.

And that's exactly what he might find attractive about you. Salivating at the chance to keep him at any cost is not attractive. It's weak and repellant. Strength is attractive. (I know these things from firsthand experience.) Work on taking very good care of yourself and detaching from him, because he's told you that he doesn't want to R. You might tell him that you're interested in R, but not at the expense of your mental health. That you'll be working on yourself and if he changes his mind, please come talk to you. And then detach like a MFer.

And that's exactly what he might find attractive about you. Salivating at the chance to keep him at any cost is not attractive. It's weak and repellant. Strength is attractive. (I know these things from firsthand experience.)

Agree. But just don’t pretend to be there to use it as a lure either, you will give yourself a way and that will read like more lies/manipulation. Truly, look after your side of the street, be earnest in what you want and what you don’t want, and keep developing.

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[This message edited by morted at 10:45 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

It’s normal for bs to lash out in early days after dday. I think Sissoon was asking was this a pattern in your relationship prior?

I don’t think you should put up with abuse but a bs saying they hate you after finding out you cheated on them would be not out of the ordinary.

Suggesting you stay and service him until he finds a girlfriend is not appropriate, but he backed off that pretty quickly. He is hurt and he wants you to hurt. A longer pattern of this would be bad. After dday the lashing out is just part of it, but like emergent said there should be a coming around of I didn’t mean that.

So my questions are, what boundaries is it ok for a W to set on the BS in regards to respecting them? What's reasonable to expect when the BS has lost all respect for you due to you acting with no respect for yourself, them or the relationship by having an affair? How do you set those boundaries?

Just by virtue of being a human, you deserve to be treated with respect. My H and I agreed to no name-calling; no "I'm done" from either of us unless we really, really meant it; and anger shared in an appropriate manner. ("I feel so angry right now!") Also, if we popped off in anger and said things similar to what your WS said, we'd follow up ASAP with something like, "I'm sorry. I don't mean that. I'm angry and hurt."

"If you [violate this boundary] I will end the conversation." Mean it, and defend your boundaries. Do what you say that you're going to do.

What do you mean by detaching? What's that look like when living together? Should I move out? Should I stop doing the things for him that I was planning on doing and want to do?

To me, detaching is internal. If I do something nice for my H like fix his plate or make his favorite meal, it's because I want to give him a little gift, not because I'm looking for approval or a reaction. Continue doing things for him because you want to be kind to him, but not because you're trying to earn anything from him. Make it a gift. An NSA gift. Don't even expect a thank you or a smile. And go ahead and be proud of yourself when you're able to do this. It's not easy to stop clawing at someone from whom you desperately want approval and attention.

If he's seeing if I'm committed to working on the relationship and myself without a guarantee of R as a reward, won't that sabotage it?

Your work on yourself is so that you can be the best possible version of yourself, whether you're alone or with him. It helps you either way, and it makes you a much better candidate for R. If you do some reading in the General section, the main thing that a BS wants from a WS is for them to "do the work" of making themselves a better person.

Also, do not "work on the relationship" right now. He's told you he doesn't want to R. Respect that unless he tells you otherwise. The nice things that you want do for him should not be transactional - they should not be because you want him to stay in the relationship with you, though of course you do want that. He's hurting, you see he's hurting, you caused the hurt, you own the hurt, and you're trying to help with the hurt. For him alone. Not because you want something from him. Does that make sense?

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[This message edited by morted at 10:45 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

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[This message edited by morted at 10:45 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]