SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Forgive me as I learn the many acronyms! I'm 45m, and she's 40f.

We're 1 mo past DD#2 when I confronted my WW with knowledge of an online-only EA. I'm 100% sure it was online only. But this one hurt even more than A#1.

EA#1 I discovered when I overheard some sultry noises from the office during an online call, back in fall of '22. In that instance I gathered evidence, cloned logins, learned -everything-, and decided that I would try to "win her back" by being the over the top good husband I perhaps had not been. Really, really wanted to just have it fade away, and let her bury it and not have the indignity of my confronting her.

It didn't work, so on new year's eve 2022, give or take a day, I confronted. There was much remorse, but some regret that I had "waited" months before confronting. We did a quick reconcile and things were actually better than ever between us.

This time, I had no suspicion, thinking all that was in the past, until I again heard just the barest hint of sultry sounds again from the office. This time I recorded audio, confirmed the EA, and confronted same day - keen to not make the same error as the last time. This time, again much remorse, but we've now followed through with starting MC.

I had considered whether IC makes more sense, but I really felt like the accountability of me being in the room might help. Don't know.

The two EAs, to hear her explanations, were completely different in nature. The first was a torrid, lascivious fantasy, played out with a never-met person from an online community. It was interesting to me, because I had been concerned that she was mostly asexual, and seeing these chats revealed that she did have those desires. For various reasons around depression, and thinking I did not love her, I guess she turned to someone else. I know this was not at all my fault, but I also acknowledge that my own depression at the time may have played a role. I've since come through that and don't suffer any of that depression now. Just this new depressing reality lol.

The process of playing choose-me really f*cked with my head though, as having cloned her accounts, I could see things in real-time, like her having sex chats with OM even WHILE I was massaging her feet at the end of the day. Or observing the "been thinking about you all day" chats, when I was in the bathroom 5 minutes post-intimacy. This level of live access was more damaging to me mentally than I thought it would be. Not recommended!

This most recent EA, was different. I didn't hack accounts, or learn anything about the nature and scope of the A, save that I know 100% it was virtual only. The part that hurts so much more this time is that what I recorded was not tawdry sexual content, but a simple "I love you" sign off, after a mostly benign chat.

I confronted immediately as mentioned, and the claim this time was that it was because of fear of being ghosted from an employment situation in a similar online community. The OM#2 is not the employer, just a teammate, in an informal job situation. She claims there is no actual feelings for him (I do have doubts his is true), and that she wants to cut it off but try to preserve the working situation.

And here come the red flags post DD#2: after confrontation, I continued my monitoring, and discovered it hasn't stopped. I had COVID about 2 weeks after DD which made monitoring difficult, however I did again hear an "I love you" and on the day I was recovered and able to rejoin the family, I confronted again, and she claimed it was because she hadn't found the right time to let him down easy.. claimed she didn't want to hurt anyone, including him. I pointed out that she was willingly and actively hurting me to prevent even the prospect of hurting him.

She does not want me to read historical chats, even though she claims they are not lurid. Feels she should still have some privacy in online discussions. Does not acknowledge to him her family situation (12y married, 2 kids).

Instead she told him, and read aloud the texts of that exchange to me, that she needs to reevaluate her life, doesn't want a relationship and wants to remain just friends.

Following this, we began MC, and I have maintained my covert monitoring. I feel like shit sneaking around my house, dropping voice recording devices into various rooms and the car.. it drives me nuts, consumes untold hours reviewing, etc. I hate what I've become, but I feel compelled to gather evidence before confronting.

What I have heard since then has been -mostly- harmless, but I have felt there's some back sliding.. calling him "babes", hanging up right as I pull into the driveway, etc.. I can't be sure but I might also have heard an "I miss you".

I feel like the lack of willingness to acknowledge to him that she has a marriage and family is just inviting him to think he still has a chance and he'll keep pressing the matter. I got nothing against him, he has no clue, of that I'm sure.

I really wanted to be okay with her continuing in the role, and if she provided me with two-sided recordings of all voice conversations, and unfettered access to all chat apps, and told him the full situation, maybe I could have got there.

But that's where we are. I'm biding my time until our next MC session in 10 days, listening to and recording every conversation I possibly can, hoping that I find nothing, but that if I do, I'll have the courage to demand (and the support of our counsellor to recommend) the steps above.

I don't think she appreciates that the marriage is still in a grave state. I am motivated to resolve and reconcile, I love her deeply, and value our family unit. She's a stellar mom. But f*ck me it does my head in. I probably thought about this 100x today alone, since I knew she was going to be taking a call on the road (yes I've got a recorder in there, but one day she'll find that).

Anyway, that's enough there for a first post. Interested to get thoughts. Anyone who thinks EA is less than PA, I don't know.. I think PA maybe easier to just quits the whole thing, whereas I'm self conditioned to think this -should- be less, that I should be able to get over it, and instead I just mindf*ck myself over and over.

You remind me of me in a lot of ways in terms of what I went through with my wife’s affair. My heart goes out to you. What jumped out at me the most when reading your post is the lack of consequences. I did the same thing and all it led to was me feeling bad about myself by doing the pick me dance and not getting the desired results. The pick me dance is in my opinion a way betrayed spouses try to gain control back. The problem is, you’re dealing/competing with a fantasy world. It’s an uphill battle to say the least.

This part of your post stuck out to me.

She does not want me to read historical chats, even though she claims they are not lurid. Feels she should still have some privacy in online discussions.

She has a right to decide if she wants to keep those posts secret. She has a right to keep talking to him. She has a right to lie about you and your children’s existence. You have a right to begin exiting the marriage and let her know you mean business. Read up on the hard 180. See if it appeals to you. It didn’t appeal to me at first. She keeps doing it because she can without any real consequences.

It’s impossible to say if an EA is worse or as bad as a PA. It’s totally subjective based on the individual. From your post I can tell you think about it all the time. You’ve consumed a great amount of time surveying her and going over the data. I know from experience how miserable that is. Don’t judge yourself and make decisions based on what would bother other people. Many of the older and wiser posters here often say the goal is to get out of infidelity. Because being in it is full of ongoing trauma. The two most common ways to get out are divorce or her really ending the affair and being an accountable partner. Hang in there. You can get some great support from the folks here. Some of the stuff might be hard to hear, but it comes from a good place.

I sm sorry for you. You sound like a good guy stuck in a very tough situation.

I think you learned, as I did, that EAs that are discovered with no real consequences results in the ability for the cheater to cheat again.

So I think you are doing better in terms of not letting her slide in this EA.

I wonder why she needs the ego boost from other men in her life. That is her "problem" and perhaps what she needs to focus on in counseling.

Somehow you need to let your cheating wife know that there will not be a third party in your marriage ever again.

My H pushed me too far during his last affair. He saw a side of me he wished he had not seen and it changed our whole dynamic. I used to be a doormat.

Not anymore lol. And in 11 years since his last affair we’ve had no issues regarding his cheating. Because he has no more chances (and he knows it).

Thanks Legatus. Yes there have been essentially no consequences as a result. This time going into MC, there's been some forced discussion on it, and we've had more conversations and tears at home over it, but nothing concrete. I was hoping following through on the MC would help, but from reading the forum I'm concerned it will drift the wrong direction. I will watch for that and terminate if it goes that way.

1stWife, I may be doing a bit better this time, but still feeling kind of door-matty. I'm interested to hear what side of you you brought out that drove home the point so clearly! In my case, she's been taking nearly zero active steps to reassure me it's over, other than yesterday (after the call I mentioned) proactively showing me a thing that suggested the group call took up all the time. I suppose the tacit intent was to show that that would have prevented time for any one on one call.

At the least I know that my non-negotiable condition is unfettered access to phone, chats, and two sided recordings of all conversations. At some point I would hope to stop checking.

Anyway thanks for the welcome and both your replies!

Welcome to SI and sorry that infidelity has been part of your life. The Healing Library located at the top of the site has a lot of great resources and includes the list of acronyms we use. There are some posts pinned to the top of the forum that have some really great resources. Also, there are some with bull's eye icons that are good reads.

For your WW (wayward wife), I suggest the book How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald. Nog Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass would be good for both of you to read, as it does address EAs. The worst type of infidelity is the one that happens to you.

Is your WW in IC (individual counseling) to work on becoming a better partner? She has a lot of work to do on herself to be a safe partner. MC (marriage counseling) is to work on the relationship and doesn't necessarily address infidelity. Your M didn't cheat - she did.

IC for you to help you through the trauma and emotional damage that has been done. I found a betrayal trauma specialist to be very helpful.

If you have problems with sleeping or depression, please see your doctor for help.

Thanks, will check out the resources you mentioned, as well as the books. Our MC has recommended a couple as well.

[This message edited by OnlineIsReal at 7:00 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

I agree with what first wife said.

Somehow you need to let your cheating wife know that there will not be a third party in your marriage ever again.

Through my experience with my wife she eventually admitted she thought I would never leave her regardless of what she did. And she was right, until she wasn’t. Everyone needs to take their own path, but what I did was let her know I wasn’t happy. Actually I said I needed to be at least contact in my life. Living in a constant state of hyper vigilance was not a great place to be stuck. For me it meant being in a constant state of discovering threats and then doing nothing to change the out outcome.

The folks here helped me understand my wife was living in a fantasy world, which I think may apply to your wife. She likely wants to stay in that world, and she can because you’re letting her. Are you going to be content with her continuing to talk to this man? From what you’ve said, I don’t feel like you are. She’ll get to have her cake and eat it too and you’ll be obsessing about this daily.

I let me wife know it I wasn’t going to live that way anymore and was starting the divorce process. Conversations were no longer interrogation sessions, they were divorce planning sessions. Focusing on division of assets, custody…. An expected epiphany I had was the way my wife had fantasized a divorce would go. In her mind the worst case scenario would be moving out to a crappy apartment and her retaining the home. She thought I would continue to help her run her small business making and distributing product. She even thought I would still come over to the house to fix stuff. That really made me realize how much of a doormat I had been. I let her know that because of certain legal documents and a lack of commingling of some inherited money, she would walk away with a small fraction of what she thought she would. After she confirmed it with an attorney her fantasy was shattered. We’re still in reconciliation. I still wonder if she’s in it for the relationship or the lifestyle, I wonder the same thing about myself though.

Fantasy number two that I feel you need to shatter is the one she has with the EA partner. This is just my opinion and if you disagree or feel like it’s not right for you, I get it, you are the expert on you, not me. This is what I would list as non negotiable s.

1) he be made aware of you and your kids existence. He might be a good guy who wants nothing to do with this.
2) she goes no contact with him regardless of any professional sacrifice.
3) you have access to everything at any time.

There’s more, but those are the basics. Do you know if the AP is married? Does he live near you? Again, I don’t know you at all and these are my opinions based on very limited information. Take what helps and toss the rest. Don’t ever feel like you need to keep anyone on this forum happy. Most of us post out of empathy.

Thanks Legatus, that's interesting and helpful.

So flipping the narrative to D put you in a position of control over your own life. Curious at what point that flipped back to R.

Yep those demands you listed feel like the minimum I will go forward with. As for continuing to talk to him, depends. But you're both right, I can't have a third party living rent free in my head for the rest of my life. I think cutting contact is ultimately necessary, but if I have full visibility and he's made aware, then I might tolerate it only until WW can find a new community. Part of the issue she's described to me is she has very few friends, isn't appreciated at work, and found basically acceptance and respect with this group.. long story of trauma etc.. part of my mental chess match is that I know if I blow this whole thing up instantaneously, there's a chance she'd resent me forever.

I know very little about him (AP#2) right now, except that he's not anywhere near us. For AP#1 I knew EVERYTHING. Probably more than WW even did. I found his wife, his parents, his kids, where they go to school, his pets names, the address of the lakehouse he'd go to for their voice chats, how much he owed on the mortgage there, etc etc. I fantasized many times about how much destruction I would cause if things didn't go my way. It was strangely comforting to just dive into the research. I'm sure not entirely healthy.

I might do some basic research here to see what his situation is.

[This message edited by OnlineIsReal at 8:16 PM, Tuesday, December 31st]

The first thing you need to accept is You Only Control You. You cannot make her behave. You cannot fix whatever is driving her. That is the hardest thing to get past. Your decision should be simple. What can you tolerate and what can you not. Go from there.
Take it from someone whose body still pays the price for a job that nearly did me in. Your body should be treated like the fragile thing it is. Getting out of this pain is paramount. To survive you need to have someone you can unload on. I suggest a therapist. If he/she tries to make you responsible for 50% of the mess, move on to another therapist. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU HAVE DONE MADE HER CHEAT! If she is miserable a quick trip to a divorce attorney can fix that. I consider what she is doing is emotional abuse.
Eat healthy
Get enough sleep
Don’t use alcohol or drugs(unless prescribed by a physician. Many bs need those short term)
Get outside and do some form of physical activity. Walking, running, biking, hiking. Some on here go to a gym.
Stay on here. I am convinced this group should write a book. A lot of very good advice on here. Also, you will get different opinions. Use the ones you need and ignore the rest.

as well as the books. Our MC has recommended a couple as well.

Which ones? If any are by Esther Perel toss them. A lot of her stuff validates infidelity and a freshly caught, still in the fog cheater should be kept far away from it.

For this

So flipping the narrative to D put you in a position of control over your own life. Curious at what point that flipped back to R.

What Cooley said about it not being about control is key. Every time I did something to try to control her it backfired on me in some way. After banging my head against the wall over and over trying to gain control, I finally realized it was pointless. Once I knew it was pointless I moved onto what I could control, me. That’s when I started seeing how in control of me she was. Why, because she was showing me who she was and I was refusing to believe it. Instead hanging onto my previous view of her. Your wife is controlling the entire situation right now. She lies so you do what she wants, so you stick around to fulfill the roles she needs from you. My suggestion is to take your half of the control back without any expectation of her doing anything. Just focus on you and you moving your life towards a destination where you’ll be content.

It took me longer than most (years) to reach that point, but it was liberating once I did. I finally gave her a list of all the conditions I needed in order to not file for divorce. I had divorce papers filled out and attached to the list. I told her all I needed to do was go to the county clerk and pay my fee and divorce proceeding would start. If she violated anything on the list, that’s what I’d do. I told her we are still legally married, but not together anymore. I was moving in my own direction and living my own life. Long story short, she saw I was moving on and saw it was making me happy and excited. I think that’s what let her know I was serious. I told her the only reason I was giving reconciliation a chance was because of the kids. After about 3 months I started doing stuff with her again and saw she was committed to making a repair. She wasn’t defensive when I asked questions. We read affair books together and then would discuss each chapter. The list goes on. I want to say we,re about 3 years into the reconciliation and some people on this page might not consider me in reconciliation. Because if the kids all went off to college today, I’m not sure I’d stay with her. If I’m being honest though, I still don’t 100% trust her and likely never will. Knowing and believing I can leave her at any point and live a great life is what gives me relief. If you read my story you’ll see I made just about every mistake in the book.

I think finding out more about the AP would be good. There was someone here in the last year or so whose wife was being catfished. She didn’t realize it until she had destroyed their marriage.

Did some sleuthing - as predicted it was a good distraction, and I feel a bit better with details.

Got his social profiles on FB, Insta, LinkedIn, Twitter
His company, DOB (confirmed 10y younger), Home address, phone number, parents names, pets.

Pics of a GF seem to peter out about a year ago, so not sure if he's got his own BS/BP.

Happy New Year all!

Welcome to SI. There are some posts pinned to the top of the forum and some with bull's eye icons that we recommend new members to read. The Healing Library is at the top of the page and has some great resources.

Usually, I recommend that the WS (wayward spouse) read How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald and that you both read Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass. It sounds like your WW (wayward wife) is still in her A. At the very least, she needs to go NC (no contact) with her AP (affair partner) and find a new job. There are consequences to her actions, and this should be one. As long as they still work together, the A is on-going.

MC is generally to work on the relationship. Your relationship didn't cheat, your WW did. I hope the MC is holding her accountable and not shifting any of the blame to you. Your WW has a character problem. There's nothing that you did or didn't do, said or didn't say, that caused her to cheat. She is 100% responsible for that decision.

Based on his address how likely do you think it is for them to have met in person?

0%

There's absolutely no way, I'm at least sure of that.

@leafields thanks for your reply as well..

At the very least, she needs to go NC (no contact) with her AP (affair partner) and find a new job. There are consequences to her actions, and this should be one. As long as they still work together, the A is on-going.

I had been thinking I could tolerate contact temporarily if I had full permissioned visibility into all communication both verbal and text, but I can see why you and others are suggesting otherwise.. certainly I know I could never come to trust under that scenario, which is no way to live.

I'm interested to hear what side of you you brought out that drove home the point so clearly!

Back story: first affair in late 90s was an in person EA. He refused to admit it was anything more than a friendship. He gaslit me. He lied. The EA went on for 4 years. Rugswept and no consequences.

15 years later it’s Affair #2. This EA turned physical and 10 days after Dday he wants a D.

While I was working hard to R (and thought he was too) I learned he was still cheating. At that point I snapped. I knew I had to put myself first. I had to get off this emotional roller coaster he had me on.

Dday2 of affair2 I told him I was D him (and I had a solid exit strategy).

I did the hard 180 and did not speak to him unless kids were around.

I told him he had to leave. He refused. I called a friend in front of him and told him my H (STBXH) needed a place to stay for a few days until he found a new home.

I scheduled a meeting with a mediator.

He no longer had any power or control over me.

No became a complete sentence. He begged to go to marriage counseling. I said "no" b/c when I asked him he was rude and condescending about it. He made me feel like I wasn’t worthy of his time and effort.

All along I would give in to avoid an argument or resolve things. I don’t do that any longer.

In 11 years he has not given me any reason to suspect him of cheating or lying. He knows there are no more conversations or chances — it’s just over. He’s free to do what he wants but if I don’t like it— he knows what the outcome will be.

I didn’t set boundaries or tell him what I needed b/c I no longer cared. I was planning to D. But this time around I saw remorse, shame and his actions to make amends. I believe b/c it came from him deciding to change is why we were able to R.

He committed to the idea of R and making amends. On his own. No one demanded anything from him (except a post nup which he willingly signed).

I hope this helps you.

@The1stWife
I am in awe. What a strong stand. Thanks for posting that.

I want to step into something a bit deeper than simply demanding your wife stops cheating. I want to try to get to the "why" she cheats. I think SHE needs to work on this to stop – to heal.

I have this theory that most (if not all) affairs are about validation.
We all have a need for validation, only most of us get it in some accepted and healthy way. That can be anything from admiring our body in the mirror after a workout, praise from our boss, a raise in pay, a compliment from a stranger, we can find validation in possessions, in improving our golfing handicap... Millions of ways, and most of them healthy and positive.

I also think validation is important. I think we need realistic validation to make progress. I can validate my financial health by viewing my savings, assets, lifestyle and so on. I can validate my ethics in how I am viewed by others. I can validate my work performance in the responses of customers and coworkers...

I even think we might have a healthy need for validation by the other sex. For most of us then it’s enough to get a compliment on how we dress, or we smell nice or the new haircut is working. IMHO there is nothing wrong in attention from the other sex, as long as our response is within the boundaries of the marriage and we have no need to seek out the response or more response.

I think that most infidelity starts as some form of validation.
In the stereotypical, mostly-wrong, gender-differentiation theory of validation and infidelity then men have affairs to confirm power – I am still so loaded with testosterone that I can bed that wench sort of mentality, and women have affairs to prove they still "got it". I think this basically covers the main reasons people cheat – sans the gender differentiation.

What causes an unhealthy need for validation? I think that in most instances its internal insecurities. Something in your wife is making her have a need to find something in other men. Could be she needs validation that her weight-loss is noticeable, that she can still draw attention, can be she feels shes missing out on something, could be childhood issues... whatever.
Chances are it’s something many of us have experienced and have dealt with – without cheating. For your wife... I’m guessing she’s always throwing out signals about her insecurities and then latching on to anyone that responds in the correct way. Some of those that responded "correctly" will have boundaries, but some will also be dealing with their insecurities and need for validation, and will continue to feed THEIR need.

Basically – You can demand your wife quits having affairs. That would be like asking an alcoholic to stop drinking. Chances are both could do what they are asked to do for some time, but then fall back to their old ways because the underlying issues haven’t been addressed. I think your WW needs IC, and that IC should probably be focusing on her sense of self-worth and how to validate herself in a healthy manner.

Oh... finally... which is worse – EA or PA?
There is an answer, and it’s the generally accepted answer here on SI:
The type of affair YOU experienced is always worse. Irrespective of EA or PA.

No consequences means she gets to be the romantic heroine in her own story.
Attention from you
Attention from plenty other OM out there just waiting.

Nothing to lose, so what's her worry except a bit more closer monitoring which means her fiending for contact will make her tactical solutions to making contact again more exciting.