SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Background: Found out wife was sexting someone at her work a few months ago. There's a long story about it the Just Found Out forum. We're now trying to reconcile. We're both in IC and MC.

Is this gaslighting or am I just being codependent?

Recently, my wife went to an all-day conference for work at a hotel. The conference lasts for 3 days, and she opted out of staying the night at the hotel because it's uncomfortable for her, and because she understood that it would freak me out. The hotel is a little over an hour away from our house.

Day 1: She spends a lot of extra time getting ready. She looks amazing. She's wearing new clothes purchased for this event.

She's clearly excited about the day. I tell her how good she looks, and I can tell it's appreciated. She's being more affectionate, smiling more, and is just way happier than I've seen her in weeks or maybe even months. I find myself thinking, "This is the girl I married."

Out of nowhere, she says to me "What if I put on this negligee underneath my blouse and when I come home you can undress me?" I agree, that would be great (and think, I don't know where this came from, but I like it!) But she never says she's going to do that, just "what if".

Before she leaves, she says "What am I missing? Oh yeah, period products." She then runs back to our bedroom and returns triumphantly by saying "Got em".

I feel prepared for the day. I know it's going to be a challenge, but this conference happens every year, it's a real thing, and I'm used to this.

She leaves in the morning, gives me a big kiss goodbye and tells me she loves me. Then proceeds to pull out the driveway in the opposite direction of the hotel and in the direction of her work and her AP.

I'm immediately falling apart and searching for answers. What's going on?

I go back to our bedroom and check the closet; I can't find the top to the negligee, but I can find the panties. I look everywhere, but I can't find it. I'm now thinking, cool she may actually be wearing that, and I may actually get to unwrap her tonight!

I then go to our bathroom to double check the "period product" that she mentioned, and specifically I'm looking for a special item that is marketed as "what you use when you're on your period, but you still want to fuck". It was there early in the morning before my wife went back into our bedroom, but now it's gone.

My heart sinks and I feel like although there could easily be "reasons" for all of this, I'm in no mental shape to juggle this for the next 15 hours on my own.

My wife texts me and says that she stopped by a potential employer (all dressed up) to let them know she had applied for a position (which immediately explains why she started her day in the opposite direction of the hotel). Since her work is also a solid hour away, this checks out.

She later texts me when she gets to the hotel and sends me pictures of her parking tag with the time she arrived, and pictures of her sitting in a large conference room with other people. I feel a lot better now, but the period product and negligee are still bothering me. Of course, my trauma brain is saying "she's doing that for someone else at the hotel you moron!" But there's no proof of that, only fear.

I work from home through the day, and my wife texts me several times just to check in. We share some laughs, talk about the kids, and I'm "fine" but as we move into the afternoon all I can think about is that she's not going to be home until like midnight tonight.

During one of her long breaks, she texts me and asks if I'd like her to call. Which is greatly appreciated because it helps calm me down. But when she asks how I'm doing, I'm honest with her. I tell her I'm not doing well, for obvious reasons but I try not to go into a lot of details because I know that she's trying to make it through a long day, and she already knows all the reasons I'm not doing well.

At the advice of some forum goers on this site, I tell her that people online have suggested she take a polygraph test. I did this because I wanted to see what her reaction to that idea would be. I don't have any intention of formally asking her to do that. To my delight her reaction was good. She was cautious in her reply, but it was positive "Yes, I would do that. I don't have anything to hide. I've told you everything already, it was just those texts."

But then the call becomes mostly dead air, and I know she's unhappy.

A few hours later she texts me that she's in the restroom and is supposed to be headed to dinner but she's just going to come home instead. I never asked her or expected her to do this, and I say, "Don't come home early for me, I will be ok!" Her reply is short, "Already on my way home."

We don't communicate again until she's home about an hour later. She's visibly unhappy. I try to hug her, and she gives me a quick hug as she walks by. She's shut down, I've seen this happen many times before over our 22 years of marriage.

I'm now stuck trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do. I tell her thank you for coming home, but you didn't have to do that for me. That's when I realize that I don't think she came home for me. I think she came home because she was pissed off and didn't want to deal with my insecurities for another 6 hours.

I ask her about the period product, and she tells me that she just picked up whatever she could to make sure she could get through the long day. I explain that it was worrisome to me because she had previously told me she would not use it when she went outside the house, and I wasn't there. The conversation ends quickly, and she shuts down again.

As she's not talking to me, I decide to work out and go to bed early. But first I ask her, "I promise not to say a word in response, but can you please tell me how you're feeling? What you're thinking?" After a long pause she reluctantly she word vomits something like "I feel sad. I know you didn't do anything wrong. But I felt great this morning, and then after the call I just felt like you were listening to random online people, and I'm trying really hard and it just doesn't seem to matter."

Having promised not to say anything in response I got ready to sleep and gave out a big sigh. This causes her to say, "You obviously want to say something. Go ahead, talk!" I just say, "Thank you" and go to sleep.

Day 2:

I wake up first and I make her coffee as always. It's something she says makes her feel like I care about her.

I note that the period product is still not back in its spot. I forget to check on the negligee.

We don't speak to each other for the first hour. I eventually break the silence and say, "good morning." She responds halfheartedly and it's clearly not a good morning.

About 10 minutes before she's to leave for day 2 of the conference, I tell her "You look great. I love you. Drive safe today." I want to get all of that in before she leaves, and I don't want her to mistake my silence for not caring.

Before she walks out the door, she goes out of her way to give me a kiss goodbye. It's a good kiss. She looks amazing again. But today she's very unhappy.

She walks back in the house a moment later, never says a word, goes to our bedroom and then leaves the house and drives off towards the hotel.

I check for the period product, it's still not there. I remember to check the negligee, it's there now. That's probably what she unloaded.

No texts in the morning that she arrived safe. No pictures today.

Am I being gaslighted? Or am I just expecting too much?

[This message edited by 4characters at 2:57 PM, Thursday, January 9th]

I think you're expecting the wrong responses.

My reading of SI for almost 14 years and my experience as a BS tell me that the best response to being betrayed is to be clear about expectations and boundaries. That puts the BS at risk of hearing the WS say 'No,' but that is a risk the BS has to take sometime - might as well get it over with.

So what are your boundaries? What are your requirements for staying in the M? Have you told your W explicitly what they are?

You have to decide on the poly yourself. You can't rely on the anonymous people on the web to tell you what to do. Even if you take someone's advice, you have to choose to follow that advice. Own it. To heal from being betrayed, you must take responsibility for yourself.

It's easier said than done, but I don't know how one can heal without doin git.

IMO, you describe your actions and thoughts that may be co-dependent, but I'm not qualified to diagnose, so my reco is to talk to a pro. Also, consider what you're willing to do to change.

Thank you sisson, this is helpful.

From my perspective, every time I try to set hard boundaries, I upset her so much that she starts to claim that I should be working more on my own problems and that I'm triggering her.

She recently said I was "policing her" until I explained that I wasn't forcing her to do anything. She literally couldn't name a single thing I'd "made" her do.

It's like she says she'll do whatever I want but then gets mad about it. It kind of feels like she's a little kid that is getting grounded. I just don't want that to be our dynamic. I don't want to police her in any way.

What I've tried to do is say "Here's what would make me happy. You don't have to do that. I'm not forcing you to do that. But if you want examples of what I need, here they are." Then I sit back and wait for her to do that stuff without bitching about it, and some things happen, and I can see she's trying, but she is never happy about it. She absolutely hates it unless it's really basic stuff like showing me a picture of where and when she parked. Like that's nice, but it doesn't make me feel safe. It really just helps support whatever narrative she has at the time.

I have an individual therapy session scheduled for later today, I'll ask about all of this and see what I can do on my side.

Thanks again for the response!

Google the "pick-me dance." That's exactly what you're doing.

You're doing all the work to prove that you're a good husband who is worthy of her love and fidelity. She knows this and that's why she's throwing you a bone and reward you with the attention and affection you're craving if it soothes you.

And then the moment you request some accountability (ie, polygraph)? She starts acting cold, distant, and unhappy with you... because she knows that she has all the power in this relationship and that you're terrified at the possibility of losing her.

There's a popular saying on SI: In order to save your marriage, you must be willing to lose it.

That means that you don't agree to reconciliation until your wife has proven-- through honesty and consistent action over time-- that she is fully emotionally invested in your marriage and committed to rebuilding your trust.

Case in point is how you handled the polygraph question. Instead of saying that your Internet friends think that a polygraph would be a good idea, you should've said, "I can't agree to reconcile with you until I know I have the full truth. I want a full written timeline of the affair and to verify the information with a polygraph. If you tell me everything now, there's a chance our marriage can be saved. If you fail the poly or I find out anything new afterward, we're done."

Similarly, you should've straight-up asked "Where did that lingerie come from and why are you wearing it to a business meeting? Where is your <period product> and why aren't you going to straight to the conference?"

In summary, you really need to get comfortable with confrontation and your wife being upset with you. You were the one that was betrayed. If she's unhappy with the change in your attitude, no longer getting the benefit of the doubt, and having to be accountable to you, too bad... these are the consequences of her actions. If she can't handle those consequences, then you have no marriage to save.

The only reward you can expect for trying to "nice" her back is more infidelity and more pain.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:08 PM, Thursday, January 9th]

Thanks BluerThanBlue,

I think that's a fair take. It's certainly one way to approach it. It's popular advice on these forums and others, regarding the "pick me dance". I'm not saying you're wrong, but have you considered this?

If I get more infidelity, I just get a divorce. There's no more dancing needed, it's just done.

So yeah, I can be forceful and make ultimatums, or I can be nice and see what happens. Don't I end up in the same place either way?

I don't know that I want to be in a relationship with someone that I have police. I feel like I'd much rather be in a relationship with someone that I don't have to police.

If she doesn't have it in her to be the woman I need without policing, then yes I'll get hurt again, but I won't stick around for a 3rd time.

My opinion...codependency, this occurrence alone wouldn't lead me to think of gaslighting.
So sorry you are experiencing this, this shit is so damn hard.

Also, I had to google the period product. Amazing! That sure would have been nice to have before menopause.

4,

I think you be nice AND have boundaries. You can tell her what you need to feel secure and what she can do to help start building back trust. (Which will take 1000s of actions to be rebuilt - long process). But if there is no consequence, then there is no compelling reason for her to do it other than because she wants to. So if you ask nicely and she doesn't do it, then maybe that is saying something. However by communicating your needs and the consequences of not meeting them, then you are being honest and upfront with her, not issuing an ultimatum or forcing her to do anything.

You can say you want to know her whereabouts. Honestly, I would have told my H that I was going to stop by a potential employer under normal circumstances. As a WS she needs to realize that her not communicating to you causes more distrust, fear, and suspicion for you because she is proven liar.

I think a conversation on how lingerie and using products she has said are for when she wants sex both trigger your fears is needed. I mean, she could put those on at home AFTER work IF she was thinking about your concerns. So either she doesn’t see how they trigger you or she doesn’t care. So make sure she understands. Then her actions will tell you whether she cares or not. Right now, she may think that not staying in the hotel was enough of a sacrifice on her end.

I remember my WS gong to a work conference soon after DDAY. It was so so difficult. Your reactions seem very normal.

Hang in there. Remember — communicate needs then watch her actions.

So yeah, I can be forceful and make ultimatums, or I can be nice and see what happens. Don't I end up in the same place either way?

No, and here's why: Being "nice" when you're being mistreated is weak and unattractive. Calmly setting boundaries and defending them denotes strength. Strength is attractive. Also, don't be NICE, but do be kind. You don't have to be a jerk to stand your ground. Also, quit doing little passive-aggressive sighs when you have something to say or convey. Be direct. Communicate clearly.

One more thing: Maybe you should consider why Blue's advice is popular on infidelity forums.

SacredSoul33, Thank you for the response.

No, and here's why: Being "nice" when you're being mistreated is weak and unattractive.

To who? Cheaters? Who gives a fuck?

I don't want to be with people that I have to strong arm just to be a basic human being. Yes, I want my wife to respect me and love me, but not at the expense of my soul. I'm comfortable with who I am. If she can't see the strength that I have unless I'm forceful, then she can leave me. That's ok.

Also, quit doing little passive-aggressive sighs when you have something to say or convey. Be direct. Communicate clearly.

My sigh probably did come off as passive-aggressive to her, but it wasn't intended that way. I was literally just trying to gather myself enough to go to sleep. I agree with you (and others) that my communication needs to be more clear. I'm going to have to work on that for sure. It's not my strong suit.

One more thing: Maybe you should consider why Blue's advice is popular on infidelity forums.

I'm not trying to be dismissive to anyone here. I really appreciate all the advice that's been given from everyone.

I'll tell you something I've noticed about the general advice though. It seems to lean heavy towards there being one way and one way only to deal with cheaters. I don't think that's always going to be true.

When I was in my 20's I got cheated on by my fiancé. We'd been dating for 3 years and one evening after talking to her on the phone, I noticed she didn't hang the phone up all the way and I just stayed on the line listening. A few moments went by before I heard what sound like her saying "He knows. What am I going to do?" Then I heard a lot of muffled voices, and distinctly heard a man's voice in the background talking to her.

I ended the engagement that night, as her excuse was that she was with a friend from work, and he had recently gone through a divorce and needed to talk. Whatever!

But I stayed with her in a relationship for a few more months before finding her walking into her apartment with a man carrying her groceries. No idea how long she'd been cheating on me or to what extent, but that was the end of it. I never saw her again, and I was happy to be done with her.

This thing with my wife is very different in a lot of ways. 22 years of marriage, we have 4 kids. I love her infinitely more than anyone I've ever been with before. But if I find her cheating again, it's over. I won't even look back.

Agree with everything Blue said too

It's popular advice on these forums and others, regarding the "pick me dance". I'm not saying you're wrong, but have you considered this?

It's popular advice because it's true. And I know it's true because I lived it.

Before I was cheated on, I always said that I would immediately get divorced if I discovered infidelity. But then it happened to me and the first thought in my head was: "How do I fix this? How do we get back to normal as soon as possible?"

As you will see if you stick around long enough, this is the default position of nearly every BS in the discovery process. Every BS thinks their situation is different; their wife, their marriage is the exception, not the rule.

Everyone tries the pick-me dance and eventually comes to the conclusion that not only doesn't it work, it actually prolonged their pain and enabled their WS selfishness and continued infidelity.

So yeah, I can be forceful and make ultimatums, or I can be nice and see what happens. Don't I end up in the same place either way?

If being nice or, as you put it, "If you did this, it would make me happy...", was enough to motivate your wife to do or not do something, she would've never cheated on you in the first place. That's the reality that every BS eventually has to come to terms with.

You setting boundaries, clearly and confidently advocating for your needs, and having deal-breakers doesn't make you mean or "forceful"-- it means you respect yourself.

I don't know that I want to be in a relationship with someone that I have police. I feel like I'd much rather be in a relationship with someone that I don't have to police.

I completely agree with this, which is why you need to clearly communicate what your expectations are and what behaviors you will and won't tolerate anymore. She can choose to whatever she wants from that point forward.

No, and here's why: Being "nice" when you're being mistreated is weak and unattractive.

To who? Cheaters? Who gives a fuck?

Well, you said yourself that you want to reconcile, so I imagine that you'd do well to give at least the slightest fuck about what your wife thinks of you. If you're a passive-aggressive "nice" guy who bait-sighs and tolerates bullshit, collective experience indicates that you likely won't R well.

Why do you think that boundaries require being "forceful"? One can be strong without being forceful. I think you should dig into that. Do you have an IC?

Do you have an IC?

Yes, I started recently. I have a long list of things to dig into.

Think of boundaries like a literal fence that you erect around your space on this planet, and maybe you also put up a "No spitting on the sidewalk" sign. Everyone else can do what they want outside of that fence, but inside your area, you get to make the rules.

You can invite someone to comingle their space with yours, and you say, "This is how I want to live and these are the rules for being with me. You cool with that?" They either say, "Yep, that sounds like a good plan" or they say, "No, that doesn't work for me" or they lie and say, "Sure, okay" and then start hawking up loogies anyway.

You don't have to act "forceful" to get them to stop; you just say, "I'm really not cool with this. This is not how I want to live. You're going to have to stop blowing snot everywhere if you want me to continue sharing my space with you". If they won't stop, you don't punch them in the throat, you simply ask them to leave or you pick up and move somewhere where they're not. You're not trying to control what they do. They can launch snot rockets all over their area if they want to. You're controlling your own area. That's how healthy boundaries work. They're not mean.

When it came to the pick-me dance, I tried that before. It didn’t work for me. Obviously, because here we are again.

On the topic of boundaries and "control":

My WH initially also said he wanted "autonomy" right after DDay. This was when he was in the fog, trying to excuse his behavior.

Anything I did was perceived as controlling. If I asked a question, I was pushing him. If I talked about what I needed, I was trying to change him. If I talked about his stopping certain behaviors, I was controlling.

So I talked with my therapist about this, and she was very insightful about things, and helped me with boundaries.

Boundaries are about what *I* will tolerate, and the plan *I* have in place if things occur that I find I cannot tolerate.

When I told my WH my main boundary, he was kind of speechless. And it made a change in how he viewed me, for sure. Once I told him my boundary, he saw me as stronger, and he started understanding that his approach of "don’t answer questions" and "wait her out" wasn’t going to work anymore. And that I meant what I said.

My boundaries were

If I discovered any more lies, or if there were any more questions he was unwilling to answer for any reason whatsoever, my bag was packed. I would leave the marriage, and all further contact would be between him and my attorney. I would never see him or speak to him again, because this relationship would be deemed no longer a mutually respectful one, and not worthy of MY investment.

I am monogamous. I choose only one sexual and emotional partner, and do not wish to share partners with other people. If he desires other people, he need only inform me in an adult conversation of this matter. At that point, I will vacate the premises to allow him his autonomy, pay for the divorce, and he will be free.

He knows these terms. So far, since I laid out the boundaries, my needs have been respected.

There is one question that can/will help you decide if you want this marriage anymore. Are you constantly feeling as if you have knots in your stomach, unable to ever completely relax, have any joy anymore? You are so terrified of abandonment that you live with what appears to be acute anxiety. Where is your anger? That trip home was her twisting you up and it worked. I have a friend whose simple concept works in every situation. She say to the person pulling the manipulation, "Stop yourself". Just that. Stop yourself. Don’t beg. Don’t grovel. Don’t wait for the love she should be giving you instead of hoarding it. Do tell her to stop herself then get on with your life.
Read Games People Play. Btw, these are NOT fun games.

So yeah, I can be forceful and make ultimatums, or I can be nice and see what happens. Don't I end up in the same place either way?

Oh 4characters, I'm so sorry for what you are experiencing. I went through a lot of this kind of behavior with my WS for a long time. I don't like making ultimatums either, and I generally don't. I think it's a poor way to set boundaries because there isn't much air between an ultimatum and a threat.

"I'm trying really hard and it just doesn't seem to matter."

I hear this a lot from my WS too. He had the nerve to once say he deserved the benefit of the doubt. I think this was sometimes before dday2, when I discovered he was still talking to the AP.

I don't know if your WS is gaslighting you or if she's feeling entitled to a level of trust that she hasn't yet earned. I don't think your expectations were too much. Your WS's mentality sounds a lot like mine, and I think she is still in the mode of protecting her self-image. She doesn't want to think of herself as a bad person, so she gets angry and defensive if you imply that she did something wrong - even if she *actually* did something wrong! It's all about her bruised ego rather than your emotional pain.

I will tell you that I played nice for 1.5 years after dday1, and all it got me was more heartbreak and pain. I ate that pain for so long that my love for WS gradually faded away. I am still kind, but I no longer care whether he thinks he loves me or not. I prioritize my comfort now. Love is not just a feeling, it's an action, and actions speak volumes louder than words. His actions told me that he cared more about his discomfort than mine. That to me is not love.

Please take care of your heart, 4characters, because your WS isn't going to.

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 8:03 AM, Friday, January 10th]

You're definitely playing the pick me dance. For men it's the most sure fire way to kill off your marriage. She cheated and you're being doormat. Do you want to know the truth or believe in what you want to be the truth. If you want the truth - then tell her you want her to take the polygraph. Your wife has alot to clean up on her end to save your marriage. To get your marriage out of the infidelity mess. To rebuild trust. A simple 2 - 3 question yes or no truth verifier or polygraph is an easy step to do that. If you broke her trust would you do it? If you wouldn't why? Alot of us have been through this before. The betrayed spouse is often in a fog of denial just as much as the unfaithful. The betrayed often glosses over red flags and the cheater is caught up in some toxic mix of avoiding truth and reality. Yes it would be great if we could nice our unfaithfuls back into a healthy marriage, unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Asking for what you want is not controlling. Be kind about it. Be respectful. You can create the conditions for accountability without being oppressive. Brother your trying to put together puzzle pieces in the dark. Those that have walked this path before you understand a ton of that puzzle. People have seen what works and what doesn't work. Right now she's the taker and your the giver. You both need to be the giver.

If I have to police my wife to save the marriage, it’s not worth saving.

She either gets stronger and figures her shit out, or she hurts me again and I leave. I’ve told her this is how it works. I’m just not going to babysit her while that happens.

If I have to police my wife to save the marriage, it’s not worth saving.

I 💯% agree with you.

It’s a marriage - not a babysitting / policing arrangement.

And IMO I believe (and have posted here for years) that the cheater had enough brain cells to figure out how to lie and cheat, so therefore they can use their own brain to figure out how to fix the damage, make amends and get counseling to address their issues.

Which is why I am a proponent of NOT offering help to the cheater to lead them down the R path. Biggest mistake I made after dday1 was trying to fix it all. I wa dragging him down the R path - while he was still focused in continuing the affair.

I was too stupid to see the mistakes I was making by trying to "reconcile" with an unwilling partner.

Either the cheater fixed things in their own or your marriage can become a parent type if relationship.

I didn’t need another child - I wanted a partner.

As most of us do.